relax...

From.

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=183791

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Re: BOOST GDP!

by nameta9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:20 am

In fact technology is at the end of the line, progress is over, we won't be discovering or creating new fangled things anymore like Electricity or Computers of Jet Planes and so forth. New Smart Phones containing old hat functions like phones and cameras and the internet just won't cut it anymore. At most we can replicate millions of models, produce a huge number of items of the same type, increase distribution and production of the old things we already have (fill the third world with cars and computers and skyscrapers and so forth), but we can't really invent any really new things anymore, we are at the end of the line now.

So relax, find a nice beach and don't do anything anymore, just create nice leisure places like Rimini, Italy or similar, nice towns with discos, bars, girls (or boys if you are a girl (although I suspect we are all very old hags on these blogs but anyways) or whatever), you get the idea, hose the Work mentality, the production mentality and so forth, the "always having to do or discover or improve" crap and BS, we have done it all, it has all been achieved, now relax and free your mind, don't think about anything anymore, give up, end of story, end of the line.

Or you can cram a V8 engine and jet engine in your skull and explore new experiences...(I prefer to relax and throw all this progress BS away)...



sparrk

 

gdp again...

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Re: BOOST GDP!

by nameta9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:21 am

The point is that GDP grows by consumption not by production: the fact that all the politics - economists are concentrated on helping industries and corporations and the work - production part of the economic equation reveals not only an old fashion 18th century hard work - production mentality that hasn't been really operating anymore for decades, but also the naive idea that more production and work and competition will make economies grow: nothing further from the truth, actually it is the exact opposite, more leisure time and free time and consumption will make economies grow infinitely faster and more than any new technology or innovation or research or competition and so forth: that is why we need beaches wll organized, the paradox is that the more Non Work, the more Leisure will help protect and increase that very little real work that is still necessary for a service economy.

And a Technological Economy needs more work like a hole in the head, it needs leisure, well organized and comfortable beaches, and so forth.

Of course the USA style of increasing comsumption and propping up the service economy is to increase "Health Care", make everyone think they are sick, make them all sick, give them procedures and drugs to help protect them from "possible future sicknesses" (that probably would never occur and anyways is so vague and intractable, go figure) instead of creating nice beaches and concentrating on leisure and pleasure and enjoyment and so forth. They should take a good look at those beaches in Italy and finally get civilized, in this sector Italy is light years ahead of anyone, no doubt.

religion and beaches and minds

Re: can science and religion be reconciled?

by nameta9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:13 am

nameta9 wrote:
Hence this justifies the "Scientific Program" of designing new Brains and Minds having any possible interaction set with any possible outside environment created for it, any possible pain/pleasure circuits and so forth (the true evolution of technology, "Technology Achieved", technology on steroids, as only the pain/pleasure circuits count in the end and technology is only a means to achieve more pleasure than pain, etc.), this justifies the fact that reality is just an event, a point like event that can be emerged within any Interaction Set and Information Set and Experience Set, since the "event" is only ever all reality and truth, independent of any laws used to navigate it, nay, the laws can be invented, can be any at all, hence science is truly arbitrary as it pertains to only one set of interaction laws set up by Natural Evolution with respect to this quirky, random chemical set called Man.

In fact technology is at the end of the line, progress is over, we won't be discovering or creating new fangled things anymore like Electricity or Computers of Jet Planes and so forth. New Smart Phones containing old hat functions like phones and cameras and the internet just won't cut it anymore. At most we can replicate millions of models, produce a huge number of items of the same time, increase distribution and production of the old things we already have (fill the third world with cars and computers and skyscrapers and so forth), but we can't really invent any really new things anymore, we are at the end of the line now. We can make trillions of old things (what we should do anyways, we need huge increase of consumption and production of all kinds of things and remember that consumption is way more difficult to achieve than production, producing is easy, consuming is hard because people are still too used to the Resource Scarcity Mentality (not like the USA, the only real consmuer society), and all the economists and politicians think that GDP grows by helping corporations and production and competition and companies when in all truth, GDP grows mostly when you hike up consumption hugely, consumption should be the name of the game and more money in people's hands, not companies and production and so forth, consumption is infinitely more important than production and much harder to produce since it depends on people's culture and mind and hesitation to buy and waste like crazy, what we really need!) trillions of skyscrapers and rockets to planets and TVs and computers and so forth, mostly trillions of examples and permutations of mostly old ideas and concepts, but nothing really radically new like the Jet Plane was, or the Rocket to the Moon was, or the Automobile was and so forth.

In fact, you can really feel the desperation of our civilization that can't really go forward anymore (let alone all the political - social - economic problems that will forever be intractable and without any solutions because the Man Brain is simply a fighting against each other machine having will power machine and so forth), boredom, not knowing what new exciting thing to invent and so forth, what new possible market can be created, the constant chant for Innovation and Startups and Research and so forth hoping to gain something and so forth.

But the only real way forward now is to proudly and boldly and bluntly modify the Man Brain, the Observing Contraption on the top of our body, the Skull contents, stick in chips and new designs, make the new brains do all kinds of incredible new things, technology on steroids, technology achieved, modify the Mind and Brain in infinitely new ways, create trillions of new universes, all other past inventions and novelties will seem so tiny and worth so little compared to this.

But it is as if our Civilization is simply hesitating, waiting to make the jump, waiting and hestitating and afraid to finally plunge into the real future: the FUTURE OF WILDLY NEW BRAINS, MODIFIED BRAINS AND NEW SENSE ORGANS AND EMOTION STATES AND CONTRAPTIONS AND LOGIC AND FREE PHYSICS AND SO FORTH, THE FUTURE WHERE ALL OF THE PAST DISAPPEARS IN A JIFFY SINCE ALL THE RULES OF THE GAME CHANGE 100 %, THE PLUNGE INTO NEW UNIVERSES AND EXPERIENCE SETS AND INTERACTION SETS AND INFORMATION RELATIONSHIPS, ETC.

So keep on waiting and hestitating civilization, keep on playing puny games with old products and inventions, keep on devising new smart phones with other cameras and old hat things instead of doing what must be done: stick jet engines in the skull and mind, stick wild symbols and circuits in brains, change the brains in infinitely new varieties and types, do it man, you can do it, first gear - its all right, second gear - hang on tight, third gear you're out of sight.

Then again, even this theory and ideology may be a desperate attempt to keep on producing an imaginary progress when progress is mostly terminated in that modifying brains and minds will simply lead up pain and death since biological contraptions are so complex and intractable that it cannot be done: remember the three body problem can't be solved even with supercomputers executing a trillion operations a second...

 

 

 

 

and

 

 

from

 

 

Re: BOOST GDP!

by Smears » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Every time I go to Miami, I go to a place called Nikki Beach. It's private, and really nice, and they got all these white linen drapes hanging between the palm trees for a little shade. What I do, is I pay 300 bucks, and for that I get 2 liters of the liquor of my choice, and a king sized bed on a private beach with it's own little canopy so I can lounge around from morning till night just napping and drinking on the beach. It's a really great place. Much better than the public beaches, 65 bucks for a pitcher of mojito though. If you're ever down there you should definitely check it out.

I'll say this, I've been to 9 islands all over the place, and I've been to the "best beaches" at all of them, and if you know where to look, there's just no contest, the beaches in south Florida are supreme.

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a bicycle. Then I realized that's not how god works. So I stole one and asked him to forgive me. -some comedian. (the funniest jokes are the true ones, and this is just how most religious people act if you look at them as a group).
In the faculty of writing nonsense, stupidity is no match for genius. -Bagehot
Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you've got, the less shit you have to eat. -an old dude i met once

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Re: BOOST GDP!

by nameta9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:21 am

The point is that GDP grows by consumption not by production: the fact that all the politics - economists are concentrated on helping industries and corporations and the work - production part of the economic equation reveals not only an old fashion 18th century hard work - production mentality that hasn't been really oeprating anymore for decades, but also the naive idea that more production and work and competition will make economies grow: nothing further from the truth, actually it is the exact opposite, more leisure time and free time and consumption will make economies grow infinitely faster and more than any new technology or innovation or research or competition and so forth: that is why we need beaches wll orgainxe, the paradox is that the more Non Work, the more Leisure will help protect and increase that very little real work that is still necessary for a service economy.

And a Technological Economy needs more work like a hole in the head, it needs leisure, well organized and comfortable beaches, and so forth.

From:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=182591:

nameta9 wrote:
Hence this justifies the "Scientific Program" of designing new Brains and Minds having any possible interaction set with any possible outside environment created for it, any possible pain/pleasure circuits and so forth (the true evolution of technology, "Technology Achieved", technology on steroids, as only the pain/pleasure circuits count in the end and technology is only a means to achieve more pleasure than pain, etc.), this justifies the fact that reality is just an event, a point like event that can be emerged within any Interaction Set and Information Set and Experience Set, since the "event" is only ever all reality and truth, independent of any laws used to navigate it, nay, the laws can be invented, can be any at all, hence science is truly arbitrary as it pertains to only one set of interaction laws set up by Natural Evolution with respect to this quirky, random chemical set called Man.

In fact technology is at the end of the line, progress is over, we won't be discovering or creating new fangled things anymore like Electricity or Computers of Jet Planes and so forth. New Smart Phones containing old hat functions like phones and cameras and the internet just won't cut it anymore. At most we can replicate millions of models, produce a huge number of items of the same time, increase distribution and production of the old things we already have (fill the third world with cars and computers and skyscrapers and so forth), but we can't really invent any really new things anymore, we are at the end of the line now. We can make trillions of old things (what we should do anyways, we need huge increase of consumption and production of all kinds of things and remember that consumption is way more difficult to achieve than production, producing is easy, consuming is hard because people are still too used to the Resource Scarcity Mentality (not like the USA, the only real consmuer society), and all the economists and politicians think that GDP grows by helping corporations and production and competition and companies when in all truth, GDP grows mostly when you hike up consumption hugely, consumption should be the name of the game and more money in people's hands, not companies and production and so forth, consumption is infinitely more important than production and much harder to produce since it depends on people's culture and mind and hesitation to buy and waste like crazy, what we really need!) trillions of skyscrapers and rockets to planets and TVs and computers and so forth, mostly trillions of examples and permutations of mostly old ideas and concepts, but nothing really radically new like the Jet Plane was, or the Rocket to the Moon was, or the Automobile was and so forth.

In fact, you can really feel the desperation of our civilization that can't really go forward anymore (let alone all the political - social - economic problems that will forever be intractable and without any solutions because the Man Brain is simply a fighting against each other machine having will power machine and so forth), boredom, not knowing what new exciting thing to invent and so forth, what new possible market can be created, the constant chant for Innovation and Startups and Research and so forth hoping to gain something and so forth.

But the only real way forward now is to proudly and boldly and bluntly modify the Man Brain, the Observing Contraption on the top of our body, the Skull contents, stick in chips and new designs, make the new brains do all kinds of incredible new things, technology on steroids, technology achieved, modify the Mind and Brain in infinitely new ways, create trillions of new universes, all other past inventions and novelties will seem so tiny and worth so little compared to this.

But it is as if our Civilization is simply hesitating, waiting to make the jump, waiting and hestitating and afraid to finally plunge into the real future: the FUTURE OF WILDLY NEW BRAINS, MODIFIED BRAINS AND NEW SENSE ORGANS AND EMOTION STATES AND CONTRAPTIONS AND LOGIC AND FREE PHYSICS AND SO FORTH, THE FUTURE WHERE ALL OF THE PAST DISAPPEARS IN A JIFFY SINCE ALL THE RULES OF THE GAME CHANGE 100 %, THE PLUNGE INTO NEW UNIVERSES AND EXPERIENCE SETS AND INTERACTION SETS AND INFORMATION RELATIONSHIPS, ETC.

So keep on waiting and hestitating civilization, keep on playing puny games with old products and inventions, keep on devising new smart phones with other cameras and old hat things instead of doing what must be done: stick jet engines in the skull and mind, stick wild symbols and circuits in brains, change the brains in infinitely new varieties and types, do it man, you can do it, first gear - its all right, second gear - hang on tight, third gear you're out of sight.

Then again, even this theory and ideology may be a desperate attempt to keep on producing an imaginary progress when progress is mostly terminated in that modifying brains and minds will simply lead up pain and death since biological contraptions are so complex and intractable that it cannot be done: remember the three body problem can't be solved even with supercomputers executing a trillion operations a second...

spark plug

 

BOOST GDP!

BOOST GDP!

Hey, Brazil (or Mexico, China, India, whatever) take a look at the Italian Beaches ! They have a very organized grid of umbrellas, Bar spots called Lidos, all very comfortable, lots of room, rent the Umbrellas and Bed Chairs and so forth, and at night Discos and whatever. I saw these at Rimini but there are many other similar type beaches there, actually by a street view tour it seems that only Italy devised this Private Public organization of relaxation, of the industry of "leisure" and industry geared towards not doing anything, the exact opposite of all the BS "Hard Work Myth" of the USA or Germany or JAPAN and such.

Actually Non Work becomes a real industry with hotels and a great boost to GDP. Never mind that for now the GDP of Italy is down and the crisis and all, but anyways. The point is that long beaches in Brazil or Mexico or any place else, with the right temperature could be organized like this and they could create a huge boost of their GDP, they could create more wealth for all, etc. Most beaches of the world and Brazil are unorganized, tiny or random plots (don't get me started in the USA, they don't have a clue!), bring your own umbrella public spots (but public is OK, just divide the plots equally between public and private with organized umbrellas and anyways the umbrellas don't cost much to rent daily and they are very comfortable, nice, and so forth). Of course, there is a strong ritual - cultural element to the way the beaches in Italy are, the "Environment Style" (as any spot on earth has its own quirky, particular environment style ) so it may be hard to imitate, but anyways.

Just an idea, for those countries that need to boost their GDP to become wealthy like the "rich west" (or what is left of it), create new towns with Lidos and beaches, create areas of leisure, make it become an industry and so forth.

All the think tanks keep on chanting the BS of Innovation, Resarch, Startups and so forth hoping to boost GDP, but they don't look at the simplest and best ideas that have been working for decades, this organziation of beaches and such made the GDP of Italy grow hugely during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s so it can be done in Brazil or Mexico or China or California if they decide to.

Of course all the green thugs, tree huggers, environmentalists, and all the churches and all the huge party poopers that just want Mankind to suffer forever will find all kinds of things against it as usual, but just ignore their BS.



spark plug

nameta9

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Religion ?

Re: can science and religion be reconciled?

by nameta9 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:33 am

"The idea of going back for ever and ever was something I could not get hold of: it seemed impossible."

Compared to what ? to what you are familiar with ? to what you think is right or normal or logical ?

It may simply be, without further explanations or possibilities or impossibilities, it simply is, it is a random choice or contraption or design, just random without any why or how or logic or anything, just a random design chosen by nobody for nobody for nothing, just like the random pebbles you see in the street, just a random configuration of pebbles having no deeper reason or explanation or origin than nothing and no reason at all.

"Nothing is nothing, not anything. So the idea of a beginning was unimaginable, which somehow made it seem impossible too. The upshot was that it seemed to be impossible for time to have had a beginning and impossible not for it to have had a beginning. "

Compared to what ? to what you are familiar with ? to what you think is right or normal or logical ?

Science itself is an act of faith or religon in LOGIC, in NON CONTRADICTION in the ability of the MIND and THOUGHT to figure things out, to find out and so forth, to control the world, to find mostly technologies that can benefit this quirkily designed chemical entity called Man and so forth.

And as such it wants to be totalizing, to explain everthing, to put everything inside a narrative, an explanation, a box and so forth. But all generalized, totalizing boxes that want to contain everything (just like religions and ideologies, just like economics and so forth) are destined to fail at some point, all are destined to be flawed simply because it is impossible to contain everything inside a single narrative, inside logic or thought or the mind or anything at all, everyhitng is always past itself, is non containable and so forth.





spark

nameta9

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Re: can science and religion be reconciled?

by nameta9 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:39 am

nameta9 wrote:Science itself is an act of faith or religon in LOGIC, in NON CONTRADICTION in the ability of the MIND and THOUGHT to figure things out, to find out and so forth, to control the world, to find mostly technologies that can benefit this quirkily designed chemical entity called Man and so forth.

And as such it wants to be totalizing, to explain everthing, to put everything inside a narrative, an explanation, a box and so forth. But all generalized, totalizing boxes that want to contain everything (just like religions and ideologies, just like economics and so forth) are destined to fail at some point, all are destined to be flawed simply because it is impossible to contain everything inside a single narrative, inside logic or thought or the mind or anything at all, everyhitng is always past itself, is non containable and so forth.



spark

Compared to what ? to what you are familiar with ? to what you think is right or normal or logical ?

It may simply be, without further explanations or possibilities or impossibilities, it simply is, it is a random choice or contraption or design, just random without any why or how or logic or anything, just a random design chosen by nobody for nobody for nothing, just like the random pebbles you see in the street, just a random configuration of pebbles having no deeper reason or explanation or origin than nothing and no reason at all.

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Re: can science and religion be reconciled?

by cba1067950 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:51 am

No. Not the way they stand today. Religion is contradicted by science on many points, the origin of life, the creation of the universe, energy in the form of a soul... I'm sure there are others. Unless religious folks are willing to erase entire sections of the word of God, they will continue to contradict.

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Re: can science and religion be reconciled?

by nameta9 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:41 am

Science in general is relevant in as much as it has a consequence for us, it affects us in terms of pain/pleasure, win/lose, goals and how to reach them and so forth: it is mostly a technology even though we seldom realize it, it is mostly a device we use for our pleasure, for our goals, for our intentionality of use, for what we intend to do with it, even if we intend to just contemplate a set of pretty equations or a theory that elegantly locks all the pieces in place like Natural Evolution and so forth and so on.

But if it didn't effect us in any way, in terms of pain/pleaure, in terms of how we are configured with respect to Matter, to what is considered the outside Matter, the outside independent world, and the need to be able to predict and discover the laws that can help us navigate such a world so as to achieve the least pain, to achieve the most goals in short to make us get on top of the world - matter - the independent forces that can pop up and ruin our intentions and plans, would it matter at all ? would it have any relevance ? would we even care ?

If it weren't for the real elementary particles that are the arbitrarily configured and designed pain/pleasure circuits of the way Man, this quirky chemical entity is designed and set up to interact with its outside world (the entire interaction set of Man <-> Environment), science wouldn't exist at all (or any science would do, any science no matter how fictional and elaborate and false would be perfectly correct and valid just as much as our "real" science) since knowing or not knowing the laws governing the navigation of an independent world from us would be irrelevant, wouldn't touch us in any way, wouldn't effect us in any way, it would be irrelevant whether the laws are true or false, wether any theory or set of laws or technologies were functional or fictional, true and correct or completely wrong and false since it wouldn't touch us in any way in terms of pain/pleasure and so forth.

Hence this justifies the "Scientific Program" of designing new Brains and Minds having any possible interaction set with any possible outside environment created for it, any possible pain/pleasure circuits and so forth (the true evolution of technology, "Technology Achieved", technology on steroids, as only the pain/pleasure circuits count in the end and technology is only a means to achieve more pleasure than pain, etc.), this justifies the fact that reality is just an event, a point like event that can be emerged within any Interaction Set and Information Set and Experience Set, since the "event" is only ever all reality and truth, independent of any laws used to navigate it, nay, the laws can be invented, can be any at all, hence science is truly arbitrary as it pertains to only one set of interaction laws set up by Natural Evolution with respect to this quirky, random chemical set called Man.

Science is 100 % arbitrary and invented in as much as it pertains to the Interaction Set of a 100 % arbitrarily designed, wild and quirky and random chemical entity called Man, it reflects the totally arbitrary nature of how we are configured with respect to Nature. There are trillions of other possible configurations for a chemical entity simlar to Man but having all kinds of new interaction sets, circuits, and so forth, and each one of these would discover and create a completely new science that would appear and be perceived as an absolute truth and as a real science since such an entity (just like us) could never really go outside of itself and see just how aribtrary his laws really are (although Man, by creating science is always pretending to be some Objective Independent Observer looking at the Universe from the outside, not noticing that he is actually simply looking mostly at himself and his own arbitrary laws of interaction and discovering only these random numbers), as they are just one set of laws, Interaction Sets and Experience Sets, Information Relationships from many trillions of other possible sets.

And in fact, anyways most science today is so abstract, detached and removed from any possible clear cause and effect in terms of pain/pleasure, so indirect, that any infinite complex theory made up is equivalent to any real theory, any real theory or truth is established only in as much as it has a consequence on pain/pleasure, but take away the pain/pleasure circuits or change them and any new science can be discovered and so forth.

Notice how the scientists always say that the GOD particle they discovered and the investment will be justified by some future "technological application", as if all science is worthy only if it has some consequence for us, not for its abstract beauty and such, but then any complex theory having any abstract beauty, even if never will lead to a technological application is just as valuable or useless anyways.



spark plug

"Too many consumers and not enough producers."

From:

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=183176

"Too many consumers and not enough producers."

Totally wrong ! we have way more producers than consmuers by a long shot, we have huge excess capacity, all EU car factories (except germany) are running at less than 80 % production and you think we don't have enough producers ?!?!

The USA was used to building 2 million homes a year, now it can't even reacvh a million and so on, the Chinese have huge factiroes, we could produce thousands of times more goods without even increasing the number of workers, or just increasing them by very little.

No way, jose', you have it all wrong and upisde down. We have we too few consumers for what can be produced, hence no jobs, no economy moving and so forth. We need huge amount of increased consumption more than anything else!

----------

"What sort of work will succeeding generations find that allows them to be consumers?"

Simply no work, the idea of full employment in a society is relatively recent, only a few decades, most of the world and people, study anthropology, has lived dirt poor, most people who have ever lived would have been considered "unemployed" for all of their lives by todays' arbitrary standards and so forth.

The chinese have millions of empty homes in skyscrapers, they just keep on building like drones, so where is the "too few producers " ? All companies and factories and home builders would love to make and build like crazy, as they have done in the past but saturating markets in the end. all of the instability of capitalism is due exactly to this, easily saturated markets with goods, homes cars and all kinds of things by too few workers given the huge efficiency and productivity gains a technological economy provides and so forth.

Of course economy is just a cycle of booms and busts and instabilities, economy is not a science, just an arbitrary beahavior set a civilization gives itself, and the economy will always change and surprise you: just when housing goes bust and prices go down, there will be another boom and priceds going up again and so forth.

The stupid moralistic "work makes you richer" no longer operates for the most part, hard work for the most part is senseless and so forth. Of course some will get rich by working hard, but the system has nothing to do with hard work and merit and all to due with politics, power struggles, arbitrary decisions, networks, energy and so forth.

What I find amazing is how much of all the economic rules are truly pure inventions, man made fluke - quirk - totally arbitrary inventions masking themselves as somehow being necessary or a necessity or grounded on some fundament, some objective reasons and so forth.

Economy is a purely cultural affair, a purely tribal affair, the laws with which a tribe engages itself with are 100 % invented, a comic book, a flight of fantasy that somehow becomes encoded as a necessity, as a reference system (along with all law and legal systems, all political systems, all of the "rules of laws" governing how people interact between each other and so forth).

So where is the problem with having millions of "free loaders" who don't want to work, or make believe they work and live anyways ? who cares ? where is it written that humans must engage equality between themselves ? who is the boss and slave ? why are there even bosses and slaves ? (because someone arbitrary decided to force himself to be a boss and slave weaker people ? or a rigged system of relationships make a class of people the bosses and so forth).

We live in an economic system that is totally arbitrary at its heart, totally a random fluke of laws, rules, engagements, behaviors, values and so forth. So we must buy loads of things, new things (a never ending array of new gadgets, complex and time consuming as much as possible, crazy complex smartphones with thousands of new apps as that is what all the chant of "Innovation and Research and Startups" (are these tags even valuable ? who decides what has value and what doesn't ?) are all about and so forth) from loads of peoples or robots or machines building them to justify a mechanism to distribute money to other people and so forth. There is no solution to the economy, the economy is not even a problem, anything goes really, anything can go and will go, anything will happen, the economy can and will evolve in anyways whatsoever according to any crazy rules that become the new rules and behaviors that capture a large enough arbitrary consensus amongst the people in a tribe.

Look at anthropology, how many different tribes lived in history, each with their own rules and laws and engagements according to anything at all, a religion, a god, a book, a master boss, an enlarged family, wars and fights (between each other or against other tribes, or anything in between) all kinds of strange and absurd relationships between all of the elements of a tribe, all of the social structures being totally arbitrary, the infinitely programmable machine, a tribe of people that can be programmed into any set of rules at all (man having many wives, woman having many husbands, incest relationships ok or not, or people killing themselves all together in the name of an imaginary god or rock in the sky and so forth, the examples and possiblities are never ending, study sociology also to see how the social stuctures are all inventions, minds progammed to act and behave in any odd way, just because, for no reason at all).

So the worldwide economy is doing fine, is excellent, it will always be in crisis mode, it thrives on creating problems for itself and imaginary solutions, on instabilities and so forth. Growth will always be too low until the economies start growing too much and then must be "cooled off" and then the interest rates must go up again and the cycles repeat.

And to think that thousands of economy professors actually study this stuff thinking they are studying something that is more worthy than astrology or a comic book...

----------------


From:

http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/the-darkest-pool/

Kunstler's errors:


1) "Enjoy the flat screen TVs, water-parks, RVs, and Happy Meals while you can. "

This stuff today is a dime a dozen, takes nothing to produce, can be available to 7 billion people worldwide for free, is not available to all only because people want to grab a bigger piece of the pie to have more power upon other people. This stuff is virtually free today (along with houses, cars and all other consumer items) because the Technological Economy has reached a point where it costs very little to produce, with little labor and little energy (which is infinite, like solar) so the old fashion "resource scarcity existence" is no longer operating. Kunslter, get over it, this is the reality.

2) "The dollars that the Fed creates out of nothing are trapped in this fetid backwater of rotting capital, destined to go nowhere — surely not into activity that produces real wealth, or the means to continue being civilized."

The houses and swimming pools and stores, the Real Estate is actually the only Real Wealth a civilization needs: the real wealth has been created by the boatloads, in fact, the real estate bubble came about because too much real wealth was created, too much goods were created, too many homes: homes are real wealth, people really need only a few real things and goods to live well, cars, homes, food etc. The problem is once again that a Technological Economy can produce loads of this stuff very cheaply with very little labor and so forth.

The real problems are all Cultural, Psychological, Political and boil down too: what rules of engagements between people must be used in order to Distribute the Wealth and goods between all people ? How can we distribute a huge amount of goods and real wealth to all in such a way as to keep the economy moving and everyone satisfied ? The problems are all about distribution, not production.

And especially the biggest contradiction of all is that once you build so many homes, you got your job done once and for all, now you don't need to work for years since the job has been done, but economies and societies are based on work in order to distribute money, but the work is no longer needed, the product of the work has been created, now you can simply live without working, but an old fashion, moralistic, 18th century view of the world thinks that the equation "work creates wealth" is still operating when this is no longer operating.

Now the same problem happened in Spain and will happen in China: too much production, too many homes built but no way to distribute them. Now Spain and China are very different culturally from the USA and between themselves but they all have the same common denominator: the ease with which a technological economy makes you build real estate and they all fall in the same trap: they built and build too many homes using them as an imaginary store of value: but that is the mistake: the problems are simply how to distribute the huge amount of free wealth a Technological Economy can generate.

Now Spain has a million empty homes it can't distribute to anyone and China is building millions of homes destined to remain empty for the same reasons (the prices of the homes are too high compared to their going salaries, like a home in China costs 100,000 dollars or rents at 500 dollars a month and the avergae slob makes 300 or 400 dollars a month, go figure).

The problems are all about distribution, how to distribute the wealth to any old slob, since work is no longer necessary to create wealth, real wealth is created very easily, it is all a problem of how to give it out to all without being conditioned by the moralistic, fairy tale, comic book model of "having to work for a living".

Postato 9th July da IronMan79

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Re: Location! Location! ?

Location! Location! ?

The value of real estate is said to depend on Location. I would change the rule and say that it also heavily depends on Moment, on the time, on the era or years that you are trying to buy or sell, along with the location.

I see offerings in Detroit of large homes for a few thousand dollars: Detroit is a large city in the richest country of the world, I see offers in Bulgaria of similar homes (crappier anyways) the same for a few thousand dollars.

What do they have in common ? They are in an era or perdiod of time of bad economy, small prospects of economic growth and so forth: if no one wants to be in a place (anymore?), the value of the homes can become zero, there is no real objective values for real estate, it is totally variable.

So maybe the same home in Detroit in 1950 would have been worth ten times more than today (relatively), so it should be that moment, period of time is just as important as location, just saying...

Last edited by nameta9 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Location! Location! ?

by Kriswest » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:36 am

Location = demand and maintenance costs. Insurance rates also cause drastic price changes. Here on the gulf coast, Beautiful old mansions and regular homes are being torn down, private families cannot afford the premiums on these homes, nor can they afford to make them FEMA compliant. The land is cheap now where once an acre 10 years back would havr been 50,000$.

I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.

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Re: Location! Location! ?

by nameta9 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:29 pm

And then you have the psychology of high prices: if everyone is brainwashed and self brainwashes themselves, an entire city self brainwashes itself that its property is oh so valuable, they remain high no matter what, look at London, crazy prices from any point of view, or any European city for that matter especially Rome and Madrid etc. And then you have international funds, investors who have trillions of dollars and end up simply pumping up the value of real estate in London, New York, San Francisco, Moscow etc. so they use their cash as a weapon against everyone who is not rich and so forth.

And of course there are all kinds of power struggles, feedback effects, a lot of people live off rents being paid for their property, and they have the same interests of rich investors, keeping home values high, companies create jobs in hot areas like San Francisco and let prices go through the roof by imitating each other (pray tell me, how can any chunk of cement or chunk of wood, a piece of cement or wood, etc. since a house is just a box of wood or cement, simply a box to live in) be worth 500,000 dollars in San Francisco and 50,000 dollars in Florida ? actually the one in Florida is even bigger and nicer and has a swimming pool ad so forth.

So it is all a variable, all a wild number a society decides to impose upon itself, it is a way a society self punishes itself, a way to make a society beat itself up by this real estate war and so forth.

So they say that home prices going up is good for the economy: how on earth can anyone say this seriously ? and yet it is what everyone says and believes in.

I say that it is much easier for fake high home prices to come crashing down than it is to pump them up, it is easier to go Detroit than the other way around: after all the prices going up is a make believe bubble, only due to a dominating psychological and cultural artifact that can change course very quickly never to go back up again.

Now Shanghai, or Sao Paolo Brazil tomorrow Mexico City or Saigon or Hanoi will become the mega hot spots, go pump the prices up in those cities and so forth, the cities with high economic growth expected (and pray tell me what is the difference between economic growth and simply home prices growing ? the same thing ? home prices punish those who can't afford it).

Of course New York City, Los Angeles, London, San Francisco will forever be considered hot spots and will always have high home prices, how I wish they would crash and collapse like a brick in all of those cities, they should all go Detroit, 10,000 dollars for a nice 4 bedroom home!

Of course the theory goes that a home is worth the area it is placed in because the area offers good jobs and so forth: but if companies are always restructuring, cutting costs, changing and technology is always changing everything who will gaurantee that an area will always be a hot spot ? another bet on the future, another risk and so forth, so the home you paid 300,000 dollars for may be worth 50,000 dollars in 20 years if all the companies in an area find a way to cut costs, and fire everyone...

And then you have the cases like Madrid and Rome that have zero economy, no possible future growth and home prices that are frozen sky high: of course the banks and the people in those countries will have to wait a long time to finally wake up and realize they live in third world dumps with zero jobs prospects before those prices collapse like crazy, the sooner the better!

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Re: Location! Location! ?

by nameta9 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:33 pm

Kriswest wrote:Location = demand and maintenance costs. Insurance rates also cause drastic price changes. Here on the gulf coast, Beautiful old mansions and regular homes are being torn down, private families cannot afford the premiums on these homes, nor can they afford to make them FEMA compliant. The land is cheap now where once an acre 10 years back would havr been 50,000$.

Where is that ? and anyways you also have the wild card of property taxes changing, increasing whatever. How much is insurance ? and property taxes there ? for a 200,000 dollar home for example ? is the area a "hot spot" for jobs and such ?

Of course I assume you are in the USA, so those costs are local to the USA, my theory is more general, worldwide, real estate is always instable, a kind of war, a complex affair that already caused a massive recession in the USA and especially in Europe.

Wait and see what happens in China, they have millions of empty homes, they have this idea that real estate is a way to store value, to save money in bricks or something like that.

Pure illusion , pure make believe, pure hope and imagination, when China gets their wake up call, watch out, the world economy will go straight into a depression...