Reply......

From:

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=178031

Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

by nameta9 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:44 pm

Amorphos wrote:interesting.

The USA has 100 million home valued at about 150,000 dollars each and you really think that the USA contains 100 million jobs paid 15,000 dollars a year for 10 years

Um no, that wouldn’t make sense at all. I agree about the pricing hike, it seems the capitalists just think that one can allow ‘the markets’ to inflate by their own mystical properties. If people can afford ‘x’ then the markets [that term probably meant something in Victorian times] are at ‘x’.

So are you saying that in the main the credit crunch was invisible money becoming real, then realising it largely didn’t exist?

Everyone jumped on the bandwagon, everyone loved that their house price kept on going higher and higher for decades. Look at London, totally insane prices, look at New York City or Los Angeles, Madrid and especially a place like Rome (no industry, no offices, no job market at all, a truly turd of an economy) which has absolutely no logical reason to have sky high home prices, 300,000 dollars for a 2 bedroom home, etc.

The banks pumped the prices, the people loved it and bought into it, everyone was and still mostly is brainwashed that their home is worth so much, when in all truth, homes are the value a current economic system can sustain according to the current play of forces operating, the economy is a process, is not a static accumulation of Home Values outside of any logic, you can't freeze value into a static box that is a home, etc.

And especially the rich that pumped up the markets in center cities worldwide, the rich buying homes in London and hiking up the prices, kill them, beat them up, punch them in the face, they are crushing all the poorer people who can't compete with such prices, they are making the prices go up all across the city and region, same in Tokyo and NYC and Madrid, etc. etc.

The damage done to people who are simply a little less well off is huge with this housing price hiking that has been going on for decades all over the world, but they all pretend it is real wealth, well wealth backed up by exactly what ? The value of the owners or their capability of providing work, their talent, their capacity to Innovate or what ? The value of the owners are a big fat ZERO, they are stealing money from the poorer classes, they are using property as a weapon against the weaker class just because, for no reason at all, because they are to hate with all of your guts, hate the system we need Free Salaries and Cheap Rents!

The money doesn't exist but makes believe it exists in High Property Prices and the banks backing up their capital and worth with imaginary Property Prices they use as collateral, as assets, as their "capitalization", that have nothing at all to do with the real capability of the present economies worldwide.

I want the prices to crash like crazy worldwide.

Banks ?

Banks ?

The banks simply don't want to take the loss, they don't want to admit that Houses, Real Estate, the loans made to insecure clowns (who know that work and labor is meaningless today since a Technological Economy has rendered work and labor not only irrelevant and not needed, but a liability, not even an asset, a loss, a pain in the a*s, as hiring people is a pain in the a*s since they are all useless (freeloaders?) turds, they are worth nothing and cost way more than what they can ever produce, etc.) who thought that buying property (and flipping it, and hiking up the value and prices of homes evey year for years on end thinking that they were all getting rich, they were creating free wealth out of thin air ?) was a good investment, was the right thing to do, protected your hard earned money, etc. exactly when this was no longer possible and true because the economy will never be able to create all the high paying jobs to which the high values of homes should correspond. How are you going to pay back a 20 year mortgage when they fired you, or outsourced you or "cut waste" and gave you less money, etc. when they are killing jobs since they don't want to give out Free Salaries, the only true way to distribute weath since jobs are irrelevant and no longer needed ?

How can 20 year mortgages be backed up and guaranteed when the economy can't even guarantee a few weeks of a steady job since companies are always hiring and firing and restructuring and changing everything because they don't know how to make a profit anymore and blame the workers who are always too lazy or not trained enough or not innovative enough, etc.

So they don't want to take the losses, they don't want to accept that the 100,000 or 200,000 dollar loan given to some clown will never be paid back again because the money wasn't in the Economy in the first place, the home values are way out of line to what the real economy can ever generate, the illusion of all of this wealth that was supposed to pay for inflated home prices in the future through "high paying jobs" that never came, that were never possible from the start since a Technological Economy not only eliminates all high paid jobs always, it eliminates any jobs at all completely as a Technological Economy no longer has anything at all to do with Work and Labor and Jobs at all. So how are you going to pay for the inflated homes ? How is that imaginary wealth you though was in the economy going to come out anymore ?

The wealth in Spain and the USA doesn't correspond to the high home prices, the imaginary wealth that is assigned to the high home prices doesn't correspond to any possible reality of the underlying economy, the economy can never again generate such huge wealth through jobs or any kinds of exchanges at all, this is and was one worldwide huge Home Prices and Property Prices and Values inflation that took place all across the world, starting from JAPAN and ending in Italy, all super inflated home prices that don't correspond to the reality of any of the underlying economies.

So the banks simply, and society as a whole simply can't take the loss, can't accept the loss, be honest once and for all and declare that home prices are worth not even 10 % of what they though they were, a 3 bedroom home in the midddle of Los Angeles or Manhattan or Tokyo or London or Rome, etc. should not be worth ever more than 50,000 dollars bar none and the rent not more than 200 dollars a month. And the banks should just write off all the imaginary wealth and money they thought they had, the economies worldwide thought that was in the system as a fariy tale, as a mistake, as a bad bet, simply as money that was never there in the first place.

China and Canada are still hiking up home prices, they think they are getting rich they think that there economy can generate the equivalent jobs and exchanges, what are they crazy or what ?

The USA has 100 million home valued at about 150,000 dollars each and you really think that the USA contains 100 million jobs paid 15,000 dollars a year for 10 years in terms of potential exchanges and jobs that need to be done ? In Italy and JAPAN the situation is even worse, they all have this huge illusion that their economies are way way richer than what they really are because all of the assets and wealth are based on property prices and values which are totally fake and false and inflated way beyond anything that can possibly correspond to their real economy.

And then an economy doesn't ever need so many jobs, after you build some cars and homes and furnish some services (a few hundred thousands jobs at most), an economy doesn't need to do anything else, the idea of all of these millions of jobs needed to be done is the greatest illusion of all.

Now go on Europe give the spanish banks billions of dollars, keep on fooling yourselves..



THE APESTAR, THE EIGHT MAN

One Shot - Part Two

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

One Shot - Part Two

One way to understand the Information Relationship, the non extension or existence of Space or Time or the outside world is to see what happens when you are under pain, just a very local, small part of the body in pain, hard pain and everything else disappears, nothing is important or counts anymore, there is no world or universe or global, only that little localized pain that is absorbing all of your attention (but we are condemned to use logic to avoid or try to find out a way to escape pain, but often better to not even know you are in pain like animals, etc.). That shows how really small and little and insignificant the Universe really is, that is the bottom line, that is the real "Elementary Particle" of physics.

So we really only have local, localized, fleeting events, nothing General, no Global, no Common Good, or Rule of the Law, etc. just random events that occur just because, for no reason at all (and even if there are reasons, and you can know all the reasons of the world but you can't control or predict anything in the long run (and often also in the short run), all knowledge and general knowledge is worth zero anyways, is irrelevant) and the best reason and explanation for anything at all, the truest and most honest Science is that that always replies for anything that occurs or any process or whatever: No Reason At All, Just Because.

Funny how the general good and common good is used as a superstructure in the psychology of Man to repress his instincts, as in psychoanalysis, and Freud, etc. a control system...

Just like the programmer that has to fix complex systems, his boss tells him to do it fast (it is always an emergency, but there is a hidden agenda for making everything appear as an emergency, you are sure things will just get worst and worst which is the real reason everything must always be done right away (doing it fast you are sure to make more mistakes, aside from the show of "Hard Work"), the deadline, to create more money flows, more problems needing more contracts, etc.), really fast knowing that the faster you try to fix a bug the more bugs you introduce, but that is the real goal, solve one problem to produce 10 problems down the line, so more cash to fix 10 new problems, and fix 10 new problems to create 100 new problems down the line, so ever more cash, the worst you fix it the better, the real goal is the cash, there is no general or common good here, only someone gaining cash and someone losing cash behind all of the make believe and all of the hot air and excuses and large scale fake common good everyone talks about. But the boss is 100 % correct, only the local gain and event counts, only the local gain of any random person counts as opposed to some general good, only naive babies believe in the general good or common good, the boss just wants to increase the bottom line, cash baby cash, all the rest is irrelevant. And simlar examples can be found in many other sectors and jobs and corporations, situations etc. not only Software, etc..

Especially since it is always a simple Man Brain judging and evaluating and perceiving and assigning the value of anything arbitrarily without any real absolute reference system aside from his radnom free will and random taste and desires and pleasures, and in fact the pleasure of one Man Brain as opposed to the pain of a billion Man Brains is perfectly ok, in the end it is always a useless, insignificant contraption that is gaining or losing, there is no General World, or Common World, or Common Goal, or Common Good, only instantaneous fights between opposing will powers both of which are useless and meaningless and valueless and arbitrary, etc.

When you realize how totally arbitrary everything is since it is all based on some turd, any random turd in the end (all Man Brains are turds and always wrong), you finally see how worthless all choices and decisions and paths really are: just the one shot event exists, nothing at all, the one shot fight and winner or loser and so forth, a one transistor circuit nothing deeper or better.

There are occasions when the common goal and good is achieved like in wars, like in the USA Space Program of putting a Man on the Moon, etc. And we could achieve a huge amount of results, common goals if it really were desired and wanted, if Odumbo said that by 2020 the USA would put a Man on Mars, it could easily be done, just like any goal can easily be done, we have everything to do anything at all, we have millions of technicians wasting time in idiotic technical gadgets like the IPAD and idiotic political games in the offices, millions of idle workers worldwide, millions of hours wasted over millions of worthless procedures and documents and rules of the game all designed to repress the huge productive capacity and excess capacity a modern Technological Economy has.

But it could be done: Free Salaries, Cheap Rents and Huge Public Private Projects building Trillions of Skyscrapers, Trillions of Rockets to Mars, Trillions of High Speed Trains across the globe, Split the Sun grab all of its energy, etc.

THE APESTAR, THE EIGHTH MEN

nameta9

Philosopher

 

Posts: 1550

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:42 am

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Top

Interaction

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky-mountain-high.html

and

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=179396

Interaction...

I was viewing a youtube video (Time of Change, Trip) and noticing that only 1,000 people viewed it, the chunk of Information exists or existed for only 1,000 people, 1,000 Point Like, One Shot Interactions, no extension in Space or Time, only reciprocal, the collision of two chunks of matter interacting (the collision of Independent Particles (systems or minds or machines ?), independent from what ? all one or all disjoint ?), the Information Relationship that exists only outside of Space and Time (these reference systems are redundant, not needed or necessary for the Information Relationship that exists only according to itself and nothing else), nothing is fixed or constantly existing, everything is only an Instantaneous Interaction, the collision of two chunks of Information Relationships defining and existing for each other for only a fleeting moment (therefore doesn't exist, nothing exists), the end of any constant, reference system, of any External Fixed Reality, now only the Information Relationship, the Event, the Point Like, One Shot Event exists for only a fleeting moment and nothing else, no external universe, no past or future, or extension in space, the (local random ?) Information Relationship is the entire universe (for that Information Set ? nay For All), defines all, if only for a fleeting moment, etc. The instantaneous Interaction and Event defines the entire Universe, nay, all of Existence, the entire possibility of all, the totality, and then it is gone, because nothing exists, nothing exists long enough to create a fixed External Universe with a fixed Illusionary Space Time Matrix.

An entire New Physics can be developed along this line of thinking, only One Shot Events, only Reciprocal, only reciprocally defined and Interacting Chunks of Matter, only the Reciprocal Information Relationship (and all the permutations of possible delimitations, what is a unit and what is independent, what is contained in what, etc.) defining and measuring each other reciprocally and nothing else, nothing outside or inside the said Abstract, Platonic Information Relationship, information measuring and defining another chunk of Information and by doing this creating its existence, as existence is only what exists Relative to what else, as in the Observer defines the Observed Universe, and the Observed Universe defines what kind of Observer said Universe can interact with, how each can decode each other reciprocally.

As the extensions of Einstein's Relativity, you have Special Relativity, General Relativity and finally Absolute Relativity where the Universe is defined according to how any Random and Arbitrary Observer is designed and how that random design interacts with the only possible corresponding universe it can decode.

The frequency of repeating Information Relationships defining an illusionary constant existence, and the reciprocal frequencies of all other imaginary constant items adding up, creating a total reality that is only a set of frequencies of fleeting momentary events, repeated over and over and existing only in minds having memories that assign them as fixed, (but the memories can be written in one shot from the outside and you would never know).

THE APE MAN, NUMBER 8 MAN

nameta9

Philosopher

 

Posts: 1549

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:42 am

• 
  

Reply...

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

"PLUS you acquire very hard-to-replace expertise after years on the job that, if given out to some young college grad - as under your dizball scenario - will just fuck up a well-running system and cost the company tens of thousands to several million dollars, depending on the application involved."

Sometimes they give it out to some young grad exactly to break a system and buy another, exactly to create a new money flow, or for political reasons or many, many other obscure reasons, especially in financial affairs: never underestimate the oblique and hidden agenda of so many actors in corporations, often, nothing is at it appears: and don't believe in the brainwashing they gave you too much either.

Anyways, in your particular company, or in a given group of corporations you may be right, but there are many other situations, you simply can't generalize.

But I generalize, but don't think that I am always right... I love to be wrong and in contradiction.

And I am the best philosopher and thinker of all time, I am the best genius of all time, bar none, read all of my posts on www.ilovephilosophy.com, you will see that I am number ONE.


THE APE

nameta9

Philosopher

 

Posts: 1547

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:42 am

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Obsolete ?

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

Obsolete ?

Like when they say that you can't still be a programmer at 40 years old, after 10 years as a technician (engineer, whatever) you have to change gear and go into "management", try to be a King Boss, etc. And why is this ? Why are engineers and technicians Obsolete after 10 years of "Hard Work" and experience ? because if they were good, with good college grades and serious workers, after 10 years in a technical field they would have become so good (but they all make sure this doesn't happen by always changing the technology and making it hard to master anything by complexity and ever changing confusionary items, etc.) as to render useless and vain hiring any other new technicians and kids from college since they would have become "so productive" and so expert so as to be able do the work of 10 young kids without experience, you wouldn't need the kids, the technicians already working would be more than enough. And in fact this is exactly the case, after a few years of experience the technicians become too good to remain "doing the same things", etc. But this contradicts the dictates of "productivity", but no one notices it, everyone accepts all the quirky and random rules of the games the corporations and business culture imposes on everyone, but subtly, imposed according to a very clear and hidden agenda: hose the old guy, hire the new kids, etc. That is why they are always changing programming languages, always inventing new techiques to do the same old things, etc.

But since we have a huge Excess Capacity in terms of people and skills, we have way too many possible workers and even good workers to know what to do with them since the Technological Economy needs more workers and more technicians and more "Scientists and Engineers" like a hole in the head, they subtly brainwash everyone that after 10 years the engineer is Obsolete, no longer good enough, not fresh enough or flexible enough to learn all the "new technologies" and all other such BS.

The truth is, they have to create room for the young and hose the old turds that are no longer functional to corporations and their ritual, their little club like mentality where the rules of the games are totally arbitrary, totally disconnected from any real needs or reasons simply because the work is unecessary, there is no real work left for the "experienced technicians" to do, now we need a new crop of kids ready to slug it out in competition and see who wins the career game, the workforce is always overbloated from the start, there are way too many people for way too little real work left to do: the only thing left is to make them all play office power games, struggle and especially struggle against other people according to all imaginary interdictions and roadblocks and fight other people's will power as that is what "Advanced Management" must do in a Technological Economy that doesn't need people at all anymore, etc.

Of course they can all become very creative and create all kinds of problems and interdictions and difficulty to anyone by creating ever changing rules of the games, ever changing documents that must be produced, ever changing complex and vague procedures, etc. you get the idea.

And always change everything, hire and fire, restructure, much ado about nothing, a lot of activity that doesn't really produce or change anything anymore.

But they always say they need more "Scientists and Engineers", as if to make fun of all of those who have chosen this path and have seen how they all become Obsolete and useless turds for some mysterious reason. Of course there is no truth behind 99 % of what they all say, they are all slogans and sound bytes and crap, etc.

We would need many more technicians and there would be many more real jobs if they (who is they ?) finally decided to invest in Trillions of New Skyscrapers, Trillions of Rockets to Mars, Trillions of 1966 Oldsmobile Ninety Eights, Trillions of everything, not caring about nature or Peak Oil anymore since we can split the Sun and grab all the energy etc.

We need what I have been saying for years: Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Huge Public Private Projects for the Future...

SHPAK A LA, SHLA G A LAG BARBIE CONFUSED, SUBARU SUBARU SUBRARU RU RU NO DICE JOB, JOBSTER LOBSTER, NO DICE JOSE' , SHLAGALAG A SHPAK, APESTER THE JOBSTER LOBSTER....

Distribute Wealth ?

Distribute Wealth ?

So given that the Technological Economy has absolutely nothing at all to do with Work, Labor or any kind of Effort of any kind anymore, how on earth are you going to distribute the wealth that it automatically generates by the boatloads? Are you going to force fake and make believe and imaginary exchanges people will perform for a salary anyways ? Are you going to give the cash out for free to all ? are you going to LEND it out and make everyone have huge debts in the end (subprime loans to buy McMansions: another sign of Huge Excess Capacity and Free Wealth Generation the Technological Economy generates automatically, thousands of McMansions and such, thousands of high rises in China and such) all in the name of trying to desperately hide the truth that labor is no longer needed, is redundant, nay, that any human interaction and social exchanges at all are redundant, not needed and not necessary anymore, the system is mostly a huge Automatic Economy, generates wealth and goods by huge economy of scales, networks, huge flows of Energy and Oil, Electricity, Machines, Automated subsystems, automated and optimized production processes worldwide (and even if not automated, then run by very cheap and abundant labor in poorer countries, etc.) ? No ? Well then just be honest and give it all out for free, let it all hang out, give out free salaries and cheap rents to all worldwide and get it over with once and for all.

And you can easily see how unecessary work is in this economic system when all of a sudden companies layoff hundreds or thousands of people (for the bottom line): obviously all of those people and their labor was worthless and optional anyways, it wasn't really needed, otherwise you couldn't do that, on two feet. And how much time millions of people waste in offices, in meetings and interactions and fights and lawyers, all of the people goofing off in Education (and probably a good deal in health Care) etc. all the while the economists and politicians are always making believe that there are all of these deep "Structural Reasons" why the economy must be organized as it is, labor must be "flexible", globalization must allow outsourcing or whatever.

All of the talk about Innovation and always changing kinds of jobs every two years and so forth goes to show how not necessary and optional and all fun and games all of those "Innovations" and "New Jobs" really are, how they have nothing at all to do with the Economy at all, nothing at all to do with the Technological Economy generating free wealth and providing all of the basics to all. All of the new startups, IPADS, APPS, new jobs, are all about fun and games and fluff and make believe comic book jobs and work: things that are just cool artistically and aesthetically, it looks like real work, but the Technological Economy doesn't even notice, and needs all of those jobs like a hole in the head. It is all just a ritual, a make believe, no real necessity or needs behind it. The only need it satisfies is to make people think that they are necessary and important and that their labor counts: nothing further from the truth, all of their labor is totally irrelevant.

There are no structural invariants for a Technological Economy, people can simply get a free salary, it would actually make the economies way richer by wasting less energy to go back and forth to work and printing loads of paper that is useless anyways. All of that imaginary work and activity just tries to hide the fact that it is a cultural and social ritual, a make believe that our culture imposes, just because, for no real reason at all, because that is how the powers that be programmed it to be (or the casual forces of society programmed people and the people let themselves be programmed by), not because LABOR or WORK is a real necessity for the economy to work anymore, to feed people or to produce goods: and in fact notice that the parking lots of malls are always full no matter how high the unemployement rate or how bad the economy is doing etc., the goods flow always, people travel and the airports and highways are crowded.

The limitations are all cultural, psychological and are all based on an artistic - aesthetic, arbitrary, random choice of wanting people to "work" 8 hours a day and pretending that it is needed: it is hard to find a substitute to this ritual because all of the values, ideas, all of the distribution of wealth must be performed through "work" or what passes for "work".

It was all true and necessary (work and labor was needed, factories needed the 8 hour a day labor, etc.) up until the mid 20th century, then the Huge Productive Power of the Technological Economy started to show its force, just look at how much production went into World War Two (All government paid, but in that case, welfare was ok, the government paying for it all was ok, etc.), Germany alone produced enough to battle half of the world for almost five years, then the productive power of the USA kicked in, etc. By the 1950s we were essentially already living in an Automatic - Free Wealth Generating Technological Economy and this is even before the power of the Microprocessor, Computers and the Internet kicked in and with a much more primitive technology compared to today.

The Hippies knew this, that is what the counterculture was all about, they knew that humanity was essentially free from labor by the use of Technology and expected the Utopia to kick in: it didn't happen, the Right Wing Conservatives won and kept everyone brainwashed about all of these limitations and the need for Work and all of the Resource Scarcity Myths, etc.

Oh, I forgot, Man is the fight, the conflict, without the fight and conflict and everyone against everyone else, and everyone wanting to be the boss of everyone else and impose "Hard Work" on the loser, Man is undefined, gets lost, cannot measure himself against others. He needs inequality always, the "I am Better Than You" (or especially I "Deserve" more than you (but who judges who deserves ? another arbitrary clown, that's who)), the contrasts, the conflicts, the fights, complexity, and problems, the problems and the freeloaders and lazy turds to blame why the "Economy Is Not Doing Well" etc.

Well, the Economy Is Not Doing Well because there are no long any circuits to distribute the wealth it generates automatically unless you finally decide to give out free salaries and cheap rents to all worldwide. AMEN.